Are Homosexuals Welcome at Our Church?

For those of you, like me, who only read the first two lines of many articles, the answer is YES. Of course. Now, if you dare, read on…

Many of you have asked me what we think about the recent declaration by the Baptist State Convention that they would not allow churches in its membership that approve of homosexuality.

Unfortunately this issue has been butchered by our local news media—who often like Jr. Highers who think they earn cool points with their friends by screaming "fight! fight!" in the halls.

The issue at hand is not whether homosexuals are welcome at our church, nor is it if homosexuality is a worse sin than the other sins. The question is "What do we have to have in common with other churches in order to able to link together to do ministry?" No one is telling these other churches what to do. We just know that church planting requires a common understanding of Christian life and practice. We must be zealous for the purity of Christ’s name and message. That’s why Paul said:

1 Cor 5:11 "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother and engages in sexual immorality."

Eph5:3 "But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints."

Those who say we should not worry about what other churches in our association do should simply switch the scenario a little: How would they feel if we gave our money to help a church that taught that all Christians should be swingers as a way of demonstrating the "openness" of Christ? Or maybe if some church encouraged pedophilia as a demonsration of the elder’s love for the younger?

Now, that probably turns your stomach. And that’s the point. All sin is grossly offensive to God and we can’t openly encourage it in the church.

Some say that homosexuality is not clearly called "sin" in the Bible. The only way one can say that is to have your mind made up before you examine the Bible. The Bible speaks of it 11 times: Old Testament and New Testament, each time condemning it. 1 Cor 6:9-11 says that no unrepentant homosexual will enter the kingdom of God. People say "Jesus never spoke of it." Jesus was a Palestinian Jewish Rabbi who affirmed all the moral precepts of the Judaic law.

Doesn’t the church welcome sinners? The church is indeed a hospital for all types of sinners, but the first stage of healing is calling the disease a disease. When we blur the lines between God’s truth and the world’s moral fads, we are obstructing the light! The Gospel starts in truth—that sin of any type is rebellion against God. Jesus is Lord in the church, and, those who wish to be members of that body must submit to His authority.

There are homosexuals who frequent our church. They are welcome. Their sins are no different than mine. But to join our church you have to agree to live under Christ’s authority. If you are willing to submit to Him, and to cry out to Him for help from your sin, you will join a group of us experiencing healing from our sin.

Now, some ask, "Why single out this sin?" The answer is: we don’t. Or at least we try not to. If someone is in clear rebellion against God, refusing to surrender to Scripture, it does not matter what is their rebellion of choice—be it wife abuse, gossip, homosexuality, cheating on their taxes—they could not be a part of our church. The church is a group of repentant sinners, changed by Christ, struggling against the flesh to live the resurrection. But Christ can’t resurrect what you won’t call dead. Why not make a statement about gluttony or pride? Because there is no controversy about those in the church. If there began to be a large movement to sanction gluttony as an alternate lifestyle, I hope we’d make a statement about it, too. Martin Luther said that the courage of a soldier is not shown by his ability to stand where there is no battle, but by his willingness to stand at precisely the place the battle is being fought. This is the place of battle in our culture. Do we fault Dietrich Bonhoeffer for ‘singling out’ the sin or anti-Semitism in 1940 Germany?

What about people who honestly think that homosexuality is OK? Can you be homosexual and Christian? That is the area that is not ours to judge. We all get a lot of stuff wrong, and God alone judges the heart. Perhaps someone can sincerely put faith in Jesus and be confused on this issue. But that’s a separate question from what we tolerate inside the church. We have to uphold that form of doctrine and practice according to which Christians have lived for the past 2000 years.

One final thought: if you have a real problem with my view, and are considering the claims of Christ—don’t get hung up on this and let it turn you off from all of Christianity. As C.S. Lewis said in his chapter on sexual ethics in Mere Christianity—sexual issues are not the "center" of Christianity—CHRIST is. Deal with Him. Submit to His authority, agreeing to follow wherever He leads. He’ll explain all of this to you in its proper time.

Were you born homosexual? I was born a selfish, God-hating, polygamous, jealous, angry bigot. Both of us need to be born again. John 3:3. 1 Cor 6:9-11.

Comments

[Trying to Understand]

I will start by saying that I was raised in a Baptist home. I was baptized when I was six years old and have always been involved in church, even through college when so many walk away. So you can imagine the internal struggle I had while I was trying to accept the fact that I am gay.

I have talked with many different ordained ministers that I know about this topic, all of which are met with varying responses. From unconditional love and support to those that think that they can "pray homosexuality out of me", there is definitely a wide response. However, everyone that I have talked with agrees completely that being gay is not a choice.

To make the parallel between my being gay and you being "born a selfish, God-hating, polygamous, jealous, angry bigot" is pretty ridiculous. You make it sound as if you were able to change so I can too. The difference is that you were not actually born with those traits - you learned them as you grew and therefore you can change your ways.

I get irritated when people start quoting scripture, out of context, to support a position (not that I am saying that this is what you have done). In the midst of trying to point out why you believe homosexuality is a sin, you seem to have lost sight of the fact that Jesus told us that "the first Commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. The second is similar; to love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hinge all the law and all the prophets."

You say that gay people are welcome at The Summit, but I have to ask whether this is your true belief or just some rhetoric to be "politically correct" and not seen like a bigot. This past Sunday, 1/7/07, you mentioned in your sermon that "evil exists when good men do nothing." I have a heart and the desire to serve at The Summit, which is where my membership resides. Would I be allowed to help with setup or be on the audio visual committee or sing in the choir or work in KidZone or lead a SummitLife group? Based on your previous statement, I don't think that I would be allowed.

But then the question becomes do I get involved and essentially lie about who I am? There is no way that anybody would be able to tell that I am gay. I would never intentionally throw my homosexuality in someone's face, especially in an environment where I know that an overwhelmingly large percentage of the people disapprove of who I am (if they knew I was gay).

I would definitely like to hear your thoughts on this. I think that God is definitely moving at The Summit Church - the preaching is strong, the music is moving, the community involvement is amazing, and lives are being changed. I would love to continue being a part of this, but have major questions / reservations.

[Trying to help trying to understand]

Trying to Uderstand...I had actually posted a comment on this article before the website change...and have returned periodically to see what would be the response. I wrote from the perspective of one who is most definitely a Christian, a disciple of Christ, walking in His ways, grew up in a minister's home, and struggled with the area of homosexuality in college. I wrote how I love that I go to a church where the pastor is not afraid to deal with difficult/controversial issues and attempts to display and communicate the Grace of the Gospel in the entirity of the Scriptures! I appreciate your questions and what sounds like a humble searching...I just wanted to write and say, I've been there and hope to shed some light on your questions.
To me, it seems there are actually 2 questions that you raise.
#1- Is a person born gay? I don't expect to be able to answer this in it's entirity, but I figured I'd share some of the very compelling thoughts I've heard over the years. While there are several scientific studies that seem to speak against that claim (check out some websites like exodus.com)... what can speak to the spiritual side of things is what a former pastor of mine said...that "in our society, we have said that people are kleptomaniacs, or compulsive liars, etc...and let's say that lots of people can't help lots of things bc they were born that way...it is clear in scripture that lying/stealing iss wrong by God's perfect standard...what are we left to do in light of God's Word?" To me, that's a compelling question. But even more, in talking with MANY people who have had this same struggle...it is moreoften a realization that we were "set up" to have this struggle by our life experiences (a difficult relationship with the same-sex parent, a bad relationship with an opposite sex partner, sexual abuse, etc.) For me, I grew up in a loving, Christian home, came to know Jesus at a young age, had MANY wonderful influences in my life...but belive I stumbled in this area because I never had that relationship with my mom and my church never talked about healthy friendships (an emotionally unhealthy one leading to physically homosexual behavior).
#2- So what does this mean for living a Christian life?
I can see how you would not see a parallel between JD's comments about being selfish and your own struggles. However, I must comment on something you said...that "You make it sound as if you were able to change so I can too." One thing I have learned, no matter where the area of struggle (including bitterness, selfishness, conceit, idolatry-to name a few more of mine) is that I, in and of myself, CANNOT change. Only God, through the power of the Cross and His Holy Spirit can enable and empower me to walk in His ways...else, the only other alternative is, the cross is emptied of its power and we're completely wasting our time with this whole God/church thing.
For me, there's a question #3..."yeah, but how?" Well, if He is who He says He is, and I am who He says I am, and He can do what He says He can do, then I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. So how do I know who He is, who I am, etc? Well, if I believe that the Bible is His Word, I can go confidently to it and find Scriptures that speak against my idolatries, but also for all the satisfaction that can be found in Him. I find that He is a jealous God who wants my entire life...and Loves me with a irresistable love that compels me to follow Him. I find that he not only died for me, but through the experience of the cross understands guilt (as the entire world's was laid on his shoulders), betrayal, fear, and anger. But through the resurrection has bestowed on me a new life, can make all things new, can defeat anything and empower for anything. That is not to say that people who become Christian never struggle with anything again. If you remember the chronology...I was a Christian before I ever struggled with homosexulaity.
I don't mean to lecture on what it means to be a Christian...all I'm trying to say is that if I'm gonna call myself Christian, I look at the Bible and find that I must put the Truth of the Scriptures (ones that challenge and ones that encourage) continually in front of me as the God who loves me shapes this lump of clay into whatever he desires to be used for His Glory. I don't know if this got at the root of your post...I hope it did a little. All I know is that ALL of my struggles in any arena could be boiled down to idolatry...chasing after someone or something other than God. So I live the rest of my life letting Him into every room and redecorate, renew, restore as He wishes. Here's to the journey... Psalm 103

[Pastor J.D.]

Dear trying to understand,

Thanks for your candid thoughts. One thought to consider: you said that it was ridiculous to compare my being born "selfish" with your being born gay. You said that I learned "selfishness" as I grew older. Because I learned it after birth, I can change it. You cannot, because you were born gay.

That is exactly opposite of what I was trying to say. Pardon me for being unclear. The Bible teaches us that all of us were born sinners (Ephesians 2). We are not born good and corrupted by our society. As Eph 2:1-9 and Mark 7:23-24 say, we were born with that corruption in ourselves. All of us are born with an anti-God, self-ward focus. Sexual deviation is only ONE of the many manfiestations of that corrupted heart.

No one teaches my daughter to rebel or manipulate or lie. She just does it. No one teaches her to be selfish--to push down her one year old sister and scream "mine." No one teaches us to be xenophobic. We just do it. No one taught me to lust after women besides my wife. I just do it.

The manifestation of sin in my life may be different than the manifestation of sin in yours. But we are essentially the same. I am repentant of and sick of my selfishness and lustfulness. I am trying to let Jesus change me (note, I am not fully there yet!) . If you are sick of your sin, whatever it is, you are welcome to be in the ministry of membership of the Summit. If you are not sick of it, then you are welcome to attend, just not to join.

Ultimately, the Christian Gospel is that, in Christ, we are more despicable and loathsome to God than we ever dreamed we could be; and we are more loved and accepted by God than we could ever have hoped. To be "in Christ" simply means that you repent of all your sin, be it selfishness, laziness, bigotry, or homosexuality, and put faith in Him. Because we are all born sinners, we must ALL be BORN AGAIN.

I would love to talk with you about this in person. I hope you'll contact me!

[Sad]

I hope you realize, J.D., that by what you have said you have most likely alienated a wonderful person created in the image of God from the Summit church, and I pray not the Church. I do not know who posted, but I thank them for their honesty about their struggle. As someone who is training to be a pastor myself, from a pastoral care perspective you have really done some damage by not acknowledging the persons feelings as real. I pray that God will repair his/her heart. I believe he can and will.

[billy]

God Hates Shrimp

Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord, just as gays are an abomination. Why stop at protesting gay marriage? Bring all of God's law unto the heathens and the sodomites. We call upon all Christians to join the crusade against Long John Silver's and Red Lobster. Yea, even Popeye's shall be cleansed. The name of Bubba shall be anathema. We must stop the unbelievers from destroying the sanctity of our restaurants.

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10 says:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

[Pastor J.D.]

Dear Sad,

I'm not totally sure how I failed to acknowledge Trying to Understand's feelings. I know sometimes I might not be the most sensitive, and I would love for you to tell me how I failed here. You did not say how, you just said that I have.

T.T.U. and I have since corresponded and I am more than open to pursuing deeper friendship with him.

Love must be mixed with truth, do you not agree? I think love compels us to speak the truth clearly and humbly.

Many of my dearest friends have shown me love by calling the sin in my life, "sin." Forgiveness and grace are readily available at the feet of Jesus when only we acknowledge our guilt and fall on God's grace.

[Pastor J.D.]

Billy,

I think you're being a bit silly. I'm sure you're aware that Christians for years, starting with Paul, have explained how the OT law applies to NT believers. If not, there's a lot of discussion out there which you might enjoy reading.

And, to note, my references were from the NT, not the OT.

[interested]

Over the past couple of years, I've begun thinking pretty hard about whether a person could be born gay or if it really is a choice. Most Christians will say that a person has a choice, whereas one of my best friends (who is gay) is offended when someone suggests he has a choice in the matter.

I was particulary interested in your comments that we are born into sin but was curious if you meant for us to conclude that a person could be born into homosexuality.

I think that we are all tempted in different ways. For some, the temptation of pride is an ever-present force in their lives. Others might be heavily tempted in the area of jealousy. In the same way, I think that some people might have strong temptations in the area of homosexuality. Whether these temptations be genetic (maybe it's genetic, maybe it's not) or environmental (the influence of a single-parent home), every person still has a choice as to whether or not to be gay.

In my mind, I see being attracted to people of the same sex as the temptation rather than the sin. To indulge in these lustful thoughts or engage homosexual relationships or acts, however, is clearly sinful.

I guess maybe it's a matter of semantics if you call a person gay for having homosexual temptations or for indulging in these temptations but, to me, there seem s to be a huge difference.

I also recognize and appreciate how JD mentioned that all sins are equal. While homosexuality might is a more visible sin than pride or deceit, a sin is still a sin.

Any thoughts?

[Changed by Grace]

God loves the sinner....so much that He gave His son,Jesus to be the supreme sacrifice for our sin.
God hates sin.....no matter what name you give it. Thru Christ, God made a way of escape from sin.

If the devil is the father of lies....who is the mother....it's our minds. The devil plants a seed (thought) in our minds and if we embrace that thought it begins to grow and it brings forth SIN. That is why we are told in scripture to RESIST the devil and he will flee from you. We are to seperate ourselves from SIN, not to make excuses for it or try to find loop holes to get by with it. You cannot get by with sin as "the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal LIFE. Sin seperates you from Christ and that is death in itself.
Choices.....your life is the result of your own choices.
Change by grace,mercy and love is an awesome opportunity you have. Make the right choice. TODAY is the day of salvation for you.
"Choose you this day whom you will serve".

[Pastor J.D.]

Interested,

Good question. I suppose that your question (a valid one) is that if someone is born with a gay gene then how can what they're doing be wrong, since it is natural?

I simply take the approach that it doesn't matter if we were born into it or not. There is a very fuzzy line between what is in our biological genes and what is purely something we choose. I never made a conscious choice to be selfish or to lust after other women. Does that mean I was born with those things? Depends on what you mean. Bottom line is that I am trapped in a sinful body of death and need to be born again (Romans 7:23-24; John 3:3).

Personally, I don't believe it is genetic. The research on this is far, far, far from conclusive. Furthermore, if homosexuality were genetic, the theory of natural selection assures us that it would breed itself out of the gene pool within a handful of generations (since, this gene would keep the host from spreading the gene through its aversion to reproduction).

You are right, imo, that the temptation to homosexuality is a temptation. And temptations can be overcome by resting the weight of our souls on Jesus and depending on his power. As St. Augustine said, "God supplies what He commands."

Hope this sparks some thoughts of your own.

[Jeff]

What a discussion. This is clearly a hot button topic for the church and will continue to be in the future.

One thing I wanted to add...I honestly don't think it matters if it's genetic or not. The issue is whether it's sin.

I don't think the Bible minces words on the issue of whether homosexuality is sin, as evidenced by the multiple verses that JD has quoted throughout his thoughts.

We all have things that we struggle with. As my father would say, "all of us will push the line of depravity in our favorite area." But I think there is freedom found when we pursue the Gospel. Christ will do battle with the sinful nature in us, and when we die the victory will be complete.

But I think if you try to act like homosexuality or your favorite vice is not sin, I think you're kidding yourself.

[interested]

JD,

I think you misunderstand. My only point was that people who say that they are "born gay" (regardless of whether that's the result of genetics or upbringing) are born with a greater temptation in the area of homosexuality, rather than born a homosexual. Similarly, one person could have greater temptation in the area of pride, another in the area of anger. Do you have any thoughts?

[Randy]

I just finished reading "Sad's" post that quotes verses from Leviticus and Deuteronomy in (my opinion here) what seems to be an attempt to discredit verses from those books used in this discussion of homosexuality. And Sad is right about these verses being confusing or seeming out-dated at first glance.

For instance, Leviticus 25:44 and Exodus 21:7 state that I may possess slaves, Leviticus 1:9 gives directions for sacrificing a bull and Exodus 35:2 clearly states anyone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death (bad news for the pastors!).

The scripture also states eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight (Lev.21:20), trimming our hair around the temples is forbidden (Lev.21:20), touching the skin of a dead pig (pork, footballs - go Eagles!!!) makes me unclean (Lev. 11:6-8) and wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend) can get me stoned – and I don’t mean getting high either! (Lev.24:10-16).

Common sense would seem to say that these scriptures are outdated or even outlandish but there is "more to the story." First and most importantly, we must remember that whenever you talk about any scripture you need to talk about how to interpret Scripture. Here’s the basic rule of scripture study: To reach a biblical conclusion on any subject – especially a controversial or complex subject, you must make a decision based on the 4 C’s – content, comparison, context and culture.

In the cases of the verses you asked about, these scriptural commands are culturally specific to the Israelites so I think we approach them from that angle. But simply saying something isn't cultural isn't enough. To do so would open the door for false teaching. We should also examine questionable scriptures through the magnifying glass of "content” – what does a verse or passage say, “comparison” – what does scripture as a whole say and “context” – what is happening in the lives of the people the scripture is addressed to? The key here is that you have to look at what might be called the preponderance of evidence in Scripture, not just any one isolated passage. To take one verse – whether in or out of context - and make a doctrine or theological practice of it is wrong! Especially if you're trying to tell me I can't eat raw oysters!

Let me say that again – to reach a biblical conclusion on any subject – especially a controversial or complex subject, you must make a decision based on the 4 C’s – content, context, culture, and comparison. Ask yourself, “What does the verse as well as the whole of scripture say?" You have to look for the preponderance of evidence on controversial and complex issues.

Let me give you an example of how this works. In 1 Peter 2:18, Peter writes this: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh." Now, there are a few other verses similar to this: Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22. In the debates about slavery in the South, for instance, 150 years ago, Southern Christians would sometimes point to these verses and say, "It’s right there in the Bible. Slaves, obey your master. The Bible is pro-slavery." And they would say the Bible is on the side of slavery.

That was a real problem. The Bible never says anyplace, "Slavery is a bad institution, so get rid of it." That would have made the discussion much easier. There were a lot of people who understood the Bible to be on this side of slavery.

But on the other hand, the great moral force behind abolition was overwhelmingly Christian. And it was Christians like William Wilburforce in England, Jonathan Blanchard and even Abraham Lincoln that literally devoted their lives to the cause of freedom. And they did it because of their Christian faith. They believed that when you look at the whole of Scripture, it leads to the conclusions that all of human beings should be free. And they would appeal to the preponderance of evidence in the Scripture.

Think about it like a giant scale. On one side of the scale, you could put verses like 1 Peter 2:18 that appear to be pro-slavery. But then they’d say on the other side of the scale, there is so much of Scripture — go back to Genesis 1 — that says, "All human beings are created in the image of God." We all carry that dignity.

Then look at the prophets — Isaiah and Amos and others — who burn with righteous indignation with God’s hatred of oppression and injustice. Look at the Book of Acts where you see this radical equality in the new community. Look at the Book of Philemon where Paul writes to Philemon: "Receive Onesimus back, not as a slave but as a dear brother."

Look at Galatians 3:28 where Paul writes, "There is now neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Christians who fought for freedom said, "If you look at the preponderance of evidence in Scripture, if you take into account the whole text, then clearly slavery is not most consistent with God’s will for the human race."

Of course, looking back on it now, we would say, "Of course that’s right. There’s nobody in here that would argue that the Bible would support a system of slavery, that the Christian faith would say, "We ought to go back to that."

Historically, there have been certain complex arguments. Slavery is one. The divine right of kings to rule was another that was also supported by certain people by appealing to Scripture. These people would say there’s no place where the Bible says, for example, patriarchy is a bad institution. Get rid of it. These are complex issues. Homosexuality, dietary habits and a woman’s role in church leadership are others. In those complex arguments, it’s critical that you look at the preponderance of evidence in Scripture to get your direction

God's word is eternal and unchanging and when interpreted correctly it brings life and hope to those who would honestly and openly seek truth in its pages!

In light of that, I'd take what scripture says about any subject - in this case, homesexuality - very seriously.

God's best!!!!

[Rob]

JD

In reference to your original writing on homosexuality and your follow ups to the varying responses. Good job. Well said on all points.

I was a student at Campbell University when you brought a man to speak at one of our Bible studies who was formerly gay. I remember him saying that since his conversion to Christ and learning that his homosexuality was his sin nature expressing itself through sinful indulgences, he repented, met a great girl, got married, they had kids, he went to Bible school (the same seminary as you), he even attended the same church as me and sat in the front row with his wife. As far as I know he is today involved in ministry with the homosexuality years behind him.

I'll just never forget his testimony of realizing that his life style was sinful and then working through the repentance and temptations he had to deal with after that. His story was a struggle but it was also a success story.

I bring this up for two reasons:

First, I thought it would be good for those who may be critical of you to know that, in the past, I have seen you welcome a brother in Christ who struggled in this very area and celebrated with him when he left that sin behind.

Second, my heart and I know your heart as well goes out to this person in your church who is struggling. I hope to read later that he has worked through this very difficult entanglement as other have before him.

Keep it up JD. I haven't seen you in a few years but I'm glad to hear of the good things you're doing.

Rob

[Michelle]

Pastor JD. I would like to say....THANK YOU! Thank you for being a man of God who teaches love and respect for others but, at the same time does not feel he has to condone sin for the sake of someone elses feelings. We, like you said all have sin in our lives. We were born sinners. But, our Lord and Savior has made it possible that we be forgiven in that we become new creatures once we recieve him and we turn away from our sinful lifestyles. Homosexuals, with Gods help can turn from that lifestyle. If a person has any question about it being wrong, that is the Holy Spirit knocking on their door begging to come in and change their life. It can be done.Through Christ all things are possible! God loves us all regardless of our sexuality, race, or religious beliefs but, he does not approve of our sin or the homosexual lifestyle. It would be nice to take the scriptures and twist the words to conform to our own lifestyles but, that is not what God would have us do.Imagine the confussion if we were to change the meaning of the scriptures just so we could live our lives the way we want. What choas! God is not a God of confussion. Jesus states the facts in his Word. The mindset of man and the influence from the world would have you believe God hates homosexuals because he does not approve of being gay. God doesn't hate gay people he hates their lifestyle. I have family members and friends who are gay. They know that I love them but, I do not agree with their lifestyle.

I am just so glad that in todays church we have a leader in our church with a firm foundation that is not willing to conform to the world's ideas and justification of lifestles. I am thankful that you aren't afraid to step on a few toes. I know mine get mashed a lot of times and I need it. Thank you for loving God and me that much!

I just hate that someone who is about to lead a church would feel that you have destroyed a person. I don't feel that you have done that at all. You responded according to the scriptures and that person should know that we all are praying for him/her. We love them regardless. Facts are facts and thank you for upholding your Christian position as our spiritual leader.

[tam]

I'm sad that we have so many Christians who think they are gay. We also have many MANY christians who are carnal and worldly....I feel like I'm living on Mars sometimes when I try to talk with them and they tell me of their latest divorce or they've taken up belly dancing. SIGH....the homosexual issue is HUGE because it effects the very core of a person and the very core of families and society. We're coming to a point where gay marriage will seem normal and straights will be looked upon as odd, or "why even get married anyway".....so straights will just shack up and gays will marry....go figure....I don't think a person can be gay and a christian. Take God at His word....Be fruitful and multiply....don't add anything else to that statement...but what about infertile....Stop...stop....back to God's statement...Be fruitful and multiply...that comes about only one way.....would God make that statement then "make you born gay" so you could not obey His word? No...God does not lie. SO if that is His intent....and it comes about by a man and woman only...then homosexuality is just part of the sinful fall of mankind.....it is wrong and there is hope and help in surrendering to Jesus.

[Interested]

Regarding the issue of loving others, as someone that does struggle, I must remind each of you that the journey towards wholeness is often very lonely... often without the prospect of ever getting married.

Please pray for us that God provides the fellowship to help us fulfill the longing for companionship in a Godly way.

[Student 2]

With regard to the interpretation of Romans 13, it seems we are trying to absolutize Paul's statements regarding government in this particular text. Shouldn't our first question be, "why is Paul writing this to the Christians in Rome during that time?" When we ask this, it makes it difficult for us to view this passage as a set of arbitrary statements regarding politics (which is what we keep trying to do). Afterall, no matter what your stance on Biblical interpretation is, Paul is not writing with a modern audience in mind. It's not as if these statements are made in a vacuum. Paul is concerned that these Roman Christians are going to take vengeance on governing officials for the way they are being treated (Romans 12-13). We must remember that Paul realizes Christians are immanently in danger of persecution for their obvious lack of piety for the Roman state religion. You can feel the tension in this text. Paul knows trouble is brewing between the Roman empire and Christian believers. If Christians react violently (as their Lord did not) what witness would that be. As we all know from history it was the Christian willingness to face death for their faith that ultimately turned the Roman world upside down. Violence would not have done this!

We must also ask why Jesus was so radically uninvolved in politics during his lifetime. Homosexuality, sexual orgies, exposure of infants (worse than partial birth abortion), government oppression were rampant during Jesus lifetime. Yet, we don't see him trying to alter the state of political institutions to address these things. Nor do we see him try to garner political power to confront the injustice as so many Jews were hoping for in their conception of what a Messianic figure should look like. Rather, we see him poor out his love and grace on these people. He gives them a vision of something greater - the gospel. The gospel is the answer to injustice! What would it look like today if Christians stopped picketing, stopped lobbying, stopped debating and instead put forth a grand ethic characterized by personal transformation as a result of loving relationships. What would it look like it if we stopped trying to make homosexuality illegal and went out to these people and loved them into the kingdom of God just like every other sinner we come in contact with? Is homosexuality ok? Of course not. But we must couple our attempts at convicting them with relationships of caring. People are smart. They know when you actually care about them versus when you coldly desire for them to conform to your worldview.

The Roman world became so transformed by Christianity in so little time not because of political efforts at justice but because Christians so boldly accepted injustice upon themselves.

The attrocities of Nazi Germany were due primarily to German Christians' tacit approval of the Nazi ideology. The danger of Chrisitan Politics is that by trying to enforce justice politically, we would abandon the Gospel and enforce something totally unChristian in the process. A "big enough" army would not have been needed to stop Nazi Germany, had Christians in that region not been lured by Hitler's pursuit of power!
Food for thought.

[Student 2]

Sorry, the above response was meant for the JD's blog on his discussion with Stanley Hauerwas on Romans 13.

[bill lee]

student 2,
who is trying to make homosexuality illegal?

[Student 2]

Bill Lee,
Good catch, no one is trying to make homosexuality illegal. But many Christians are trying to make/keep homosexual marriages illegal as if that is somehow going to fix the problem. As I sad, that message was meant for another blog concerning Christians' role politically.

Should we enforce our ideology through the impersonal ordinances of the government? Or, should we proclaim our beliefs through the personal/relational love of the church? When it comes to homosexual marriages, it seems only the latter will be beneficial. The first may alter a person's outward actions, the second will transform their heart.

[An outsider]

I couldn't help but respond on this issue.
First off, it doesn't matter if you were born gay or not. That has no relavance to the end result.
Second, per the bible, Homosexualtiy is a sin. Just as adultry, lieing, overeating etc. I think J.D will agree that there is no Little sin and big sin. Its all sin.
Third, All Sin can be forgiven. If one has a repentful heart.

Lastly, our sin is between us and God not for everyone else to judge us.

I say love the Homesexual, Hate the sin.

[outsider II]

so by that logic (and thus the church's stance towards gays), if all sins are equal, then all overeaters and liars must immediately identify and repent of their sins too, if they are to attend the church, right? replace gay with fat and see how silly that sounds...

[an Outsider]

As silly as it sounds, by that logic you are right.
People that overeat because they are addicted to food is no different than a gambler that looses all their money or an drunkered that gets boozed up.

For a long time I struggled with the "Little sin, Big sin" issue but after a while I figured it didn't matter anymore.
So if I overeat or get drunk I should repent of those sins just as a person that is involved in a love affair with a same sex partner should repent as well.

Love the fat guy, hate his addiction.

[outsider aware of your church]

I am aware of a family, not together at present, that belongs to The Summit. The Mom & daughters attend, but the Father has chosen to depart the family lifestyle to assume one of homosexuality. I say he has chosen this lifestyle because essentially he has chosen it. He married, had 3 girls & not long after the last 2 were born, came out of the closet leaving his family in pursuit of establishing a home life with another man. This was a choice, just like the decision to marry his wife & have children. What I can't seem to understand is why this man doesn't understand it's a choice. He may be homosexual, no doubt in my mind that he is, but why he would marry & bring children into this world & create a family only to abandon them for what I feel is selfish personal satisfaction is beyond my comprehension. This man does come across like no one guesses he's gay, but that's far from reality. I suspected it the first time I met him when he was my child's teacher. His mannerisms suggested the thought to me. I personaly don't care if he is homosexual or straight, but what I do care about is the damage he's done to his children. For goodness sake, I care more about their welfare than he does & I'm not even related to them. When you have children, you forsake your personal satisfactions because you put your children's well being first & foremost in your life. That doesn't mean you stop living, but it does mean you put your children's best interests first. I pray his children have the life they are so deserving of. Maybe the Mom can find a man that will step into the role of Fatherhood as girls so desparetely need a strong male role model in their lives. I also pray this Mom moves on with her life & recognizes the disprespect her husband has shown to her & their family & takes the steps necessary to fulfill her future life of happiness.

[justified]

I agree completely with your entire entry. However, I doubt very highly that everyone admitted into membership has recognized their sin. How about gluttony? Do you have very overweight people in your congregation? Do they recognize it as sin? We as Christians do ignore some sins. And we shouldn't. Shouldn't we call people who are gluttonous out? Why, yes we should but it would seem mean, right? So we don't.

[Amy]

God is the All That Is. We live in Him. There is nothing us, for how could there be? What is All True has no opposite, and to assert that we have the power to make something opposite to God's Power is the ultimate in arrogance. We believe that we can do this, but we are mistaken, and it is merely this belief which has confused us and led us to believe that we can sin. There is no such thing as sin!!! We do make errors, but the errors are correctable - undoable.. Jesus is here teaching us that right now, for there is nothing we could EVER do that could somehow permanently mar God's perfect Creation that we are as God's children. To think that we could is the opposite of humility and a blatant display of arrogance. Jesus teaches nothing but FULL acceptance, peace, and love for all. Why do we insist on labeling ourselves as "Christian" or "Homosexual" or any label at all? Do we really believe that God is concerned with categorizing and labeling his children? Of course not. These are mere symbololic miscreations of the ego and certainly nothing God cares about in the least. God knows nothing but Love. In our misdireted thoughts preoccupied with judgment, we have become so lost in believing that we are under the coercion of judgment itself, where the reality is that God does not judge!!! People judge. God merely loves and wants us home. In the Prodigal Son story, the son merely THOUGHT he had to confess his "sins" to his father, but as Jesus explained in his beautiful parable, while the son was still a long way off, (in other words, before the son said a word), the father ran to the son and welcomed him home. Don't you see what Jesus was showing us here? We need do nothing. WE NEED DO NOTHING!!!!! God's love flows continuously, regardless of what silly beliefs we toss his way in attempts to block the all that is. Please consider what I am saying very carefully, for it is truth. You are only scaring yourselves and blocking the presence of love. As Jesus said in "The Course In Miracles", Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God." Peace and love to you always without limits!