Abortion: Open our eyes to what we are doing!

Thought this was encouraging.

Comments

[Dr. MD]

Great find JD. While we absolutely need solid Christians working on the political front to eliminate abortion choice and politicians who support it, we must also be working diligently to change hearts of individuals like this woman--and only the Gospel does that.

Like Piper (and you) have said, we must commit to pray for Pres. Obama, that God would change his heart. And at the same time, we Christians can't continue to be deceived by the idea that somehow the President was going to ultimately "decrease" abortions (as some ridiculously claimed -- now think Mexico City policy, abortion funding in healthcare reform, etc.).

Let's remember to pray on all fronts:

1) We physicians must maintain our freedom of conscience from performing OR referring for abortions.

2) We must build Christian pregnancy care centers that outnumber Planned Parenthood; and we must commit to care for single/expecting women and their babies as if they are our own.

3) We should pray that politicians, judges, and officials all repent and realize that they are supporting murder of a life that God has created; and that laws would be changed to outlaw the murder of babies in ALL circumstances, from fertilization of the egg.

...and on a more personal note for many...

4) That Christians would realize that the idolatry associated with wanting "our own" children that leads to In Vitro Fertilization (creation and thus inevitable destruction of embryos = abortion = murder), rather than submitting to the calling of God to adoption.

[Laura]

"Dr. MD"... first of all, making something illegal does not stop or reduce it. For instance, in the 1920's religious conservatives won their battle to make alcohol illegal, and the usage rates did not go down at all... not even a little. In fact, all that happened was that the criminal gangs who were willing to break the new laws got richer then ever from the price increase of their goods (in the resulting black market). Criminals got rich and the Pharisaical religious zealots got to feel holy (even though they actually caused more harm then good).

We should learn from history so we don't repeat it. If we made abortion illegal, it would not at all reduce abortions. The abortion industry would just go underground, it would be more unsafe and less regulated, and it would make abortionists even richer. The only method that is *proven* to decrease abortions is to inform people about alternate birth control methods.

Second of all, as for this Christian "idolatry" of In Vitro Fertilization... you must stop judging others on this point. Nowhere in Scripture is life said to begin at fertilization. The words for "conception", "fertilization", and even "womb" had very different definitions when the Scriptures were penned. Those words in Scripture did not (and so they do not) refer to sperm cells and ovum cells and what we call fertilization. If you call those who choose In Vitro Fertilization to start their family "idolaters", in fact that makes you one because it shows that you place yourself on Christ's judgment seat.

You can have your opinion as to when life starts, but don't assume that your own conscience is God's. It isn't.

[Dr. MD]

Laura, let me clarify a few things about what I meant.

You are right that if abortion were illegal, there will be some women who will still pursue unsafe abortions, and some possibly will die. However, the argument that limiting (or ultimate limitation--making it illegal) will not decrease abortions is entirely false. In places where stricter laws, less access, etc. have been enacted, abortions on the whole have decreased, and this can't be fully accounted for by people traveling to other locations. Also, just to remind you--some women might still die, but currently 500,000+ little women die every year due to abortion in the US, and their lives matter no less (or more) than anyone else's life. The overall number of deaths would drastically be decreased.

With regard to IVF, I should phrase it a little more clearly. Bearing children is a blessing from God. Inability (like all disease) is a systemic result of of sin in the world (I'm defintely not saying one's specific sin), and therefore we could view it as "unnatural" or a "curse." That being said, when one is willing to go to extreme measures (spending $20,000+ and destorying embryos, which most Christians at least *state* they believe are human babies), versus spending that same money to take care of one of the millions of orphans in the world needing a family, I would submit that in virtually every case, there is idolatry involved.

As JD so frequently preaches, things do not have to be "bad" for us to make idols of them. Family is a blessing, but when we desire to have "our own children" so much that we make compromises of our financial and moral/ethical responsibilities, we have made family an idol.

For some, the idolatry is great things like ministry, service, fulfilling work, or their children. For some, it is losing perspective of the correct God-given desire to bear children, and elevating it too highly.

I suspect we won't be able to come to agreement on this idea of fertilization/implantation/etc., so it's not really worth arguing at this point. There are plenty of philosophers and biblical scholars we can read who will do that more effectively than we will.

[anonymous]

Dr. MD,

I have good friends who could not have children of their own. After years of prayer, God told them he wanted them to have children, so they should look into IVF. Now they have a child of their own. I fail to see how their moral/ethical responsibilities have been compromised. After all, it was God who encouraged IVF. Perhaps He's telling you one thing while telling others' something else?

[Dr. MD]

Anonymous, we always must be careful about what we "feel" God is telling us, and always judge that against Biblical truth so that we are not simply projecting our own feelings/desires onto the situation. For example, there are people who say with complete sincerity that God is calling them to leave their husband or wife for another person that they really "love"--this is anathema to the Bible, so therefore God would never under any circumstances call a person to that.

IVF may not be as clear as divorce/adultery, but there is Biblical evidence against it both "direct" and "indirect." For example, if we were to presuppose that life began at fertilization, then the Bible "directly" speaks against it, as that would be taking of an innocent life--murder.

But let's say for a moment that you don't buy that argument...

IVF requires enormous monetary resources. Most often, it is borne out of a nearly insatiable desire to "have your own" children. Money isn't bad, and expensive things aren't always bad. And that desire is God-given. However, in light of the Bible's very explicit COMMAND to take care of orphans (210,000,000 by UNICEF's count), I believe it is impossible for a Christian to ethically justify IVF. God has GIVEN us the children and the command worldwide. Spending $20,000 on IVF to create "your own" by neglecting one of these millions must be borne only out of idolatry.

Even if you did claim that God had told someone to do IVF (which I believe is impossible given my first point), then surely he would not be calling such incredible numbers in our rich nation to do this at the expense of millions of orphans.

This is not an entirely novel idea. Both Al Mohler and Russell Moore at Southern Seminary have written on this (Moore mainly on adoption).

Here's a blog from Mohler that was interesting--it raises some points I'm not really going into, but it does a good job of addressing the ethical problem with IVF.
Part 1:
http://www.albertmohler.com/?cat=Commentary&cdate=2006-05-10
Part 2:
http://www.albertmohler.com/?cat=Commentary&cdate=2006-05-12

[Laura]

MD, Where are you getting your data from? According to a Guttmacher Institute survey of abortion in 197 countries making abortion illegal does not reduce abortion. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8305217.stm. How many countries did you look at in your survey? There may be an instance, like Ireland, that has laws against abortion and lower rates. But the abortion rate was culturally lower there *before* it was made illegal anyway.

Regardless, even if your laws did decrease abortions that is still no reason to call for Christians to pass them. We are not God. People should be free to disagree with our conscience about their own reproductive rights without having us toss them in prison.

"Philosophers and biblical scholars ... will [debate if the Bible says when life starts] more effectively than we will." What?! Philosophers and Biblical Scholars murdered Christ. They aren't smarter then you or I. Think for yourself. The ovum wasn't even discovered by mankind until about 150 years ago. The Bible is ancient. This isn't rocket science friend. The Bible simply does not say whether or not life starts when the ovum meets the spermoza.

I'm not in favor of abortion. I'm against presenting to the world a Church that acts more like a Sanhedrin. May God richly bless you and yours.

[Dr. MD]

As to the "philosophers..." statement, I was simply saying I'm not a philosopher. I read the Bible, and pray, and allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me. However, it would be presumptuous to think that I could become an "expert" on every topic. Therefore, just because we must think for ourselves does not mean we also don't use discernment from the Holy Spirit to listen to other believers who are studying and teaching, and whom God has gifted and called as leaders. The "religious leaders" who killed Jesus were legalistic. This does not equate to all Biblical teachers. After all, we are a body, with leaders that God has called out and anointed, and people with various giftings. We work together as a body, and therefore it is ok to listen to counsel of others, using discernment of the HS (which I believe I am using w/ regard to fertilization, but as I previously said, I don't think this is something I will "convince" you of right now.)

Btw, I was clear to say that the mission to stop abortion is on several fronts, and when it lacks Christians giving radically, forgiving tirelessly, and supporting women with generosity, then our political fights are meaningless. At that point, you're right to say that we become just a bunch of religious people who feel self-righteous and are flat out cold/callous. We must invest in pregnancy care centers and the lives of women with unwanted pregnancy and love on them and their children in order to decrease abortions.

I was just saying that in this like other situations, we must also stand for truth/right without compromise. IF one believes that life begins at fertilization (and some may not), then abortion is no less OR more heinous than the murder of a child, or a promising college student, or a prostitute, or a gang member. I've heard someone pose the question: What if in the late 1800's, we said we wanted to keep lynching of black people legal, but we would promise to work to "reduce" the number of lynchings? It's utterly ridiculous, as should be keeping abortion legal and attempting to "reduce" it only by other means. Of course, this holds true only for those who believe life begins at fertilization. While this may not be you, there are far too many other Christians who do claim to hold this belief, but their actions do not demonstrate that they really BELIEVE it.

[Amber]

Interesting line of comments here. I will start with sharing that I had an abortion nearly 18 years ago and I will clearly state that I regret it. I certainly was not informed in the abortion clinic that my baby had a heartbeat before I realized I missed my period and I was not shown that any other option but abortion was possible...I was 16 years old. I share this to speak on this subject from one who "has been there".

Fast forward to now, I run a pregnancy resource center in Wake Forest and I see first hand how broken women are by abortion. I see first hand that almost ALL women WANT to have their babies but just feel trapped by their circumstances. It is horrible to see the terrible circumstances of these women and how torn they are by this decision. Very few are brazenly pursuing abortion. Most are highly uninformed of the fetal development, abortion procedures and risks, and the resources available to them for parenting and adoption.

Of all of the women we have served, I have NEVER had a woman come in with her baby and say she made the "wrong choice"; however, I see many women come back after an abortion to weep at the "wrong choice" they made.

We can banter philosophies of when life begins, the legality of abortion, etc...but when we step in to the practical day to day situations of women and men facing these crisis pregnancies then we should humble ourselves to see that abortion hurts women and men...doesn't really help them at all. Really, it is the misguided sexuality of our culture that hurts people and creates the problem of abortion.

Abortion promises a future dream that can only happen without the baby in the way but then it mocks you when the dreams aren't fulfilled or the dreams fulfilled fail to satisfy. "Abortion as freedom" is a lie!

When abortion is legal it sends the message that it is morally right. Would making it illegal eliminate abortion? Absolutely not but it sure would pressure our society to put their money where their mouth is and support women having babies and to step up to the plate and change the face of adoption. (dont even get me started on the ridiculousness that goes with adoption and IVF...if every christian family adopted at least one child the issue of abortion would nearly cease to exist!)

As for when life begins...if it doesn't begin at the very beginning when the DNA is separate from the mother and father then when would it begin? At 7 days? At 21 days? At the end of the 1st trimester? At birth? What is different from day 7 than day 6? What is different from the first day of the second trimester than the last day of the first trimester?

Logically, you have to go all the way back to the beginning. Anything else is a slippery slope and solid Christian ethics will always default to the side of life. If you question whether it is a life or a person then you have to "error to the side of life" lest you face the creator of that life and I'm sure He has a strong understanding of when He created that little person.

This would be a lot of fun to talk about over coffee instead of cramped up fingers and wrists :-)

[Laura]

Hi Amber... everything is more fun over coffee, isn't it? LOL.

"Abortion hurts women and men...doesn't really help them at all." That is your opinion. There are plenty of women out there who will tell you they are glad they had an abortion at a certain time in their life. You, apparently, just don't know them (which may also be why you would feel fine tossing them in prison).

"When abortion is legal it sends the message that it is morally right." Legal abortion does not send a moral message at all. Similarly, legal alcohol does not say it is morally right to drink or to get drunk. It only says that you are free to. That it is legal to call people racial insults does not say it is morally right to do so, it only establishes the freedom of speech. The purpose of U.S. laws is not to establish morality by force, it is to maintain freedom and order.

No one knows when life starts. God hasn't told us, and neither can medical science with any agreement. You might say "it is safest to assume the earliest time", but that is merely your opinion. Others should be free to disagree with you without you tossing them in prison for it. Roman Catholics go even earlier then you and consider contraception, like condoms, to be immoral. Their voters even had some U.S. States make contraception illegal earlier in this century, and, thank God, the Supreme Court shot that down too.

This nation isn't supposed to be a place where whichever religious Pharisees are in power get to imprison all who disagree with their moral opinions. There once was such a nation. Christ came to it, condemned it for substituting itself for God, and God destroyed it. Keep up your own personal struggle against abortion if you feel so led, and continue trying to convince people to choose birth over abortion. However, the second you start trying to enlist the help of the government's armed men to lock up all who act out of line with your opinion is when you have crossed the line. There is a difference between 1)being an advocate of the conscience God has given you and 2)assuming you are God and that you get to physically Judge the world by your conscience.

May God richly bless you and yours,

[prolife thinker]

Making abortion illegal may not necessarily reduce the number of abortions. Making something illegal means socieity can punish the behavior.

If we apply that logic to other moral issues, you'd get these type slogans:
Keep rape safe and legal: criminalizing rape only makes it unsafe to the rapist.

Crimminalizing physical abuse of children only drives it underground. Keep it safe and legal.

When you see those crimes put in that light, you see the absurdity of the arguement. Crimminalizing an evil action is so we can punish those who do it.

[Laura]

If abortion is evil then your reasoning makes perfect sense, prolife thinker. The only problem is that there is no way to know for sure at what point it becomes evil because God has not told us.

Your tradition taught you to think stopping the reproductive process becomes evil after fertilization. The Catholic's tradition taught her to think it becomes evil after ejaculation. Others may think it is evil after implantation, or after 2 weeks, or a month, etc. All of these people have a conscience that God gave to them. The question is, "Who gets to decide when it becomes evil?"

The problem with people, like you apparently, who want it "illegal" after fertilization is this: Not only do you want to decide for yourself when it becomes evil, but you want to decide for others too! Do you really think God gave you that right over me?

There was once another group of religious people who thought that they were so holy and close to God that had the had the right to enforce their own rules where God had not set any. Jesus came to them and called them "children of the devil." Why? They had placed themselves over others as judges in God's place. Christ turned that system upside down. Those people that everyone thought were the most holy turned out to be the scum of the earth. Watch yourself, or you may end up being found to be even more evil then the one's you want to judge.

[Amber]

Laura, honey, your language is so emotionally charged. Stop and study the Bible if you want to critique Biblical views.

In your response to me you basically called me names (pharisee), assumed I want to "throw women in prison"(which I don't...punishment could be fining doctors...not that I'm even an advocate for legislative pursuits), and implied that I think I am God and a judge. My dear, back up and look at the reasons your heart is so emotionally charged in this issue...and then take it to God and see what He lovingly does with it.

God states in numerous places that he created people in the womb and determined all their days. Psalm 139, Jer. 1:5, etc

The Bible says "do not kill/murder" which in the Hebrew actually renders the concept "do not be careless with human life".

One cell of a plant is considered plant life and one cell of a human is considered human life...albeit very small.

Your remarks seem to call in to questions "personhood" rather than the question of human life. Science is clear that human life begins at the first cell containing human DNA separate from the parents. Personhood says even if it is human life it is not a person with value.

What is being called in to question is the value of said human life. Something that God has made clear that He is the creator of and He has made it clear throughout scripture that we are to value His creation.

Let's just take the argument of legalizing abortion out of this and go back to the basics. If you are a Christian than you have to go to the Scriptures for your highest authority--not reason, experience, or tradition...although these all play a role in our belief systems our highest priority must be scripture and then incorporate those other things in to the process.

You bring in arguments of tradition and what the Catholics said, and the current law says, and all these other things and all the while stating that God doesn't tell us about life. Darlin, you gotta stop and study scripture if you are going to make such claims.

Really, making abortion illegal in the US is not going to happen in our lifetime so pipe down on that argument and just figure out what God says about life all the way around.

Lastly, the argument that we aren't suppose to "judge" is a loaded argument. Are we the final judge? No, God surely is. However, He states clearly throughout Scripture to affirm that which is good and refuse that which is evil. He tells us to walk in his ways and not the ways of the wicked. He says these things in many different ways.

Making decisions in daily life is actually "judging". We make judgements based on risk, based on morality, based on a lot of things. We are thinking creatures and as such we will judge situations. We are called to call sin sin, wicked wicked, evil, evil, and righteous righteous. This is clear throughout scripture. In Matthew 18 we are even called to practice church discipline on those who are in unrepentant sin--and this is an act of grace within the church to bring people back to right relationship with God. Anywhere we are called to "judge" we are also called to show grace and to shepherd people to know God and to know His love and forgiveness for them.

We are called to deal with each other with compassion, grace, and to seek to understand people before we decide what we think. Unfortunately, blogging, emailing, and other technological forms of communication leave way too much room for misunderstanding people.

And if you step back and look at the thread on this blog...deciding that pro-life thinkers are evil is judging too.

Maybe someone you know, or you even, have aborted and you don't want to accept that it was wrong before God...let go and confess to God and experience His forgiveness.

Maybe you have friends, or you yourself, who are doing things that Christians call "wrong"...study the Bible and if they are right then take it to the cross for forgiveness...if they are wrong then show them grace that they may have done their best but reasoned to the wrong conclusion.

In the Christian life there will always be a lot of well studied people who come down on different sides of the fence on issues. We have to be humble enough to say we could be wrong but that we will do the due diligence to study well and do our best to honor what we believe God has told us in His word. And what we believe He says then we do our best to live that out day to day knowing that we will fall short at nearly every turn...that, my dear, is why Christ died and gave us unexhaustible grace for our shortcomings, blatant sins, and every failure...and we get the chance to try our best to honor him.

I'm sorry if the opinions I have offend you but I have done my best to study the bible and determine those thoughts. So, where you think I'm wrong...extend a little grace or seek to understand better what I actually believe.

If you ever want to do some bible study together then I'm game for that :-)

Blessings Laura~

[Amber]

I also wonder why Christians aren't allowed to say what others can do...but, everyone but Christians seem to be right to determine all the laws and the right and wrong of the culture.

Why can someone come along and tell me that my taxpayer money has to fund abortion and a number of issues that I don't agree with but then I can't put forth my opinion without being considered a "judge" or intolerant?

We are called intolerant by those being intolerant to us--double standard I believe. And all this does is build a divide between being able to truly sit down and come to understand each other. It also keeps us from coming together on the things we do agree upon.

I think it is a sad mark of our culture.

[Laura]

I said "imprison" for several reasons. First, you have associated abortion with murder. I assumed you think murder deserves, at least, prison time. I suppose I assumed wrong. Regardless, even the power to fine is the power to destroy. It is the power to imprison people in poverty if they disobey you. It means "obey me or I will take what you own... keep obeying me and I will keep taking it until you own nothing."

At the least, making something illegal implies judging (punishing). You may be mistaken about what it means to "judge" people, or at least how I use the term "judge". Many think judging is simply the act of thinking about someone's actions negatively or positively. Not so. Judging has to do with handing down and approving a sentence, ie, a punishment. That is why judging in Mat. 18 refers to church "disipline"... expelling someone in the church. Also note that we are not to discipline, ie "judge", those outside the church... only those inside. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you.'"

All the Scripture and reasoning you cite for when life begins is not nearly as clear as you seem to think it is. Yes, God says he created people in the womb. The whole point is that he does not say *when* in the womb he created them. There are many stages of development in the womb. In fact, to get technical, a fertilized egg is not even implanted in the womb until ~ 3 days after implantation.

Your "one plant cell is life" analogy is unhelpful. An ovum or a spermatozoa is a human cell with all the DNA of an individual. Would you equate it to a human life? Catholics take that line of reasoning and have tried to pass laws in this country making contraceptives illegal. Like you, they want to use their own human reasoning (and interpretations of vague Scripture) to judge the entire country.

I'm not calling you a pharisee as if I want to insult you. I'm telling you the truth, God condemned the pharisees for morally judging their nation in areas where God had not spoken clearly. If that truth offends you, you may want to think about why.

If you don't want your taxes to fund abortion, I think that is perfectly reasonable and fine. I haven't said that is judging. When you want to discipline anyone in the nation who has an abortion (by making it illegal), that is not fine. God has not said when life begins. Therefore, your desire for such a law amounts to a desire to judge people where God has not spoken.

[Laura]

P.S. - "If you ever want to do some bible study together then I'm game for that :-)..."

That's the beauty of the internet. We're doing bible study right now, even though God knows how far apart we are! Thanks for the offer, but I seriously doubt physical proximity will bring us closer on this issue. It may just make you want to strangle me. :)

"Deciding that pro-life thinkers are evil is judging too..."

Not if you use my definition of what it means to "judge", which I think is also biblical. I have not judged you. Nor have you judged me. You seem to be attempting to get the government's armed men to punish those who would have abortions. So you are *attempting* to judge them, and based on no clear Scripture at that!

I've not said pro-life thinking is evil. Indeed, most people on this planet are pro-life. Its just that different people have different understandings of when life begins. No one, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever, can speak for God and say for sure. The Bible does not say.

I've never had an abortion. I know some who have been hurt by it, and I know others who are thankful for it. I respect their individual consciences before God.